Creating synergy on this forum and between community and CHT organization


#1

I’ve created this topic to split a post made by @ALFREDO in the excellent discussion 3 Criteria of Humane Technology, because it deserves its own place.


#2

First , the first.

I think that we first need to concentrate on humane design and not in an discussion about bitcoin and blockchain. In this case were jumping logical steps. and eventhough Im not clear if such kind of discussion is within an usefull scope of CHT.

We here still not have a real collaboration in topics that are - no doubt-relationed, and we`re not generating the necessary synergy within the forum.

Its real that the section Suggested topics is helping to do it , but its necesary and an ethical issue to mentioned those relation topics as an antecedent to be revisited when a new topic is created. Science progress is based always on previous investigations.

In our case we have :3 criteria of Humane Techology , Principles of Humane Tech Design and the first Ideas for: 10 principles of humane technology. They are not generating synergy here, so I think we are missing energy , ideas and opportunities.

Meanwhile there are coming manifiestos (the first I was informed about its existence is a swedish one) , but here Mamies mentioned another one.

So, such kind of manifiestos are surely will be appearing in the next days and weeks , and I suggest to moderators it will useful have a section where everyone can update everybody in the forum about this issue.

Reading the 10 principles wrote down on April I feel now they must be updated and I will do it on next days . That is the synergy between the 10 principles with the 10 principles across two months in my mind. Thats good , that is the evolution of own ideas , after reading , thinking and sharing. But thats not the point , 'cause we here are a community thinking and not alone people.doing it
We a need real and powerful synergy , first within the formum and emerge in the short term with our own CHT proposal of principles, criteria or what you want to name it. And here is a lot of ideas that must to collision, crush and be recollected after that natural process of deep thinking , like in the first steps of the big bang metaphor.

If not , we`re not doing intelligent efforts


Technologies, protocols and standards for a better future Web
#3

Some excellent points you make here, @ALFREDO:

You are right in stating this. I can only say that we are in the ongoing process of improving / reorganizing this forum - work that proves to be quite time-consuming, especially with people involved having busy agenda’s already. Currently I can spend less time on the forum than before, but @Mamie is doing great work behind the scenes, I can assure you!

Regarding synergy… I am of the opinion that real synergy needs additional tools. I see the forum as a raw collection of information and a place to discuss it, but it is inadequate for real cooperation / collaboration and subsequent elaboration. We’ll be looking into best ways to follow-up on intiatives arising here on a case-by-case basis.

In addition to what you say, I think we should also bring the collaboration / interaction between the community and the CHT organization into the discussion. From the core CHT team I have heard their intention and desire is, to be much more involved. But until now that has not really materialized.

Some time ago we had the announcement of a job posting regarding the Ledger of Harms… which sounds like a truly great idea. But other than the short description in the posting we have no idea what this really entails, now way to really follow-up on it. We are not in the loop. Also Tristan Harris is posting frequently to Twitter (https://twitter.com/tristanharris) about his activities for the CHT. Why just Twitter? Why is this not shared in this forum? Such cross-posting takes just a minute…

I think the lack of involvement that exists now, is a real hindrance to the success and growth of this community. I am under the impression (maybe wrongly) that most community members would like to see a community that is led by initiatives coming from the CHT organization, rather than this forum being a more or less separate entity - a grassroots self-organizing place for discussion. Discussion is fine, but you can do that in so many places on the internet already. People want to act, to contribute to things that lead to lasting change. We want to help realize humane technology, help bring it about, make it a reality.


#4

Many thanks to both of you for bringing up critical (in both senses of the word) points.

Your comments about synergy tie in with the blogpost I wrote near the beginning of this month. I had wanted to respond to @tristanh’s testimony before the UK House of Commons, to describe the kind of synergy I experience in the presence of my friends and workmates, and to make a few bold claims.

Re @tristanh’s involvement and that of other CHT team members in the forum: I feel that the forum is raising itself, maturing through trial and error—virtually without the critical guidance of CHT. At the beginning of my involvement, I felt this was a bad thing, but now I accept it as reality, a neutral condition of our participation in the forum. Of course, through your efforts, @aschrijver, and those of @mamie, @metasj, and others, the forum has better definition, organization, and focus.

When I look at members’ activity, though, I see hundreds of zeroes in the categories of visits, reads, etc. Is the forum, as a few people have suggested, not as effective a form of communication as it could be? Does the cause lie in the discourse format? Do we indeed need the vitalizing force of CHT’s core team?


#5

I don’t want to detract from your important point:

But I like your blog post, so just a small reaction…

Through the constant use of digital devices, we are turning into human batteries. We think we are plugged into our devices, but actually they are plugged into us. We are the source of the energy running them, and the more we use them, the more we modify ourselves to suit their requirements.

This gets more and more prevalent the younger you are. We older people have the advantage to still know a time before all of this existed, and thus to know how to live an alternative life. For young people being ‘plugged in’ has become the norm. It is hard to envision a life without all the pervasive tech then.

What role can this minority [of non-digitally-plugged-in people] play in the manipulated, addicted culture Harris describes?

So, like you said, by being the example, and entice people to take alternative paths. But this also means you’ll have to step out into the digital realm to be able to reach them :slight_smile:


#6

@ALFREDO

I think that we first need to concentrate on humane design and not in an discussion about bitcoin and blockchain.

I think priority of this forum should be Humane Design, but in the same time discussion about blockchain related technologies should not be frowned upon. Blockchain technology leads to Self-Sovereign Identity - and this idea of Self-Sovereignty is as humane as it gets. I will write a post about this next week. The ideas of Humane Design and Self-Sovereign Identity (source of authority) should be aware of each other as they are 2 sides of the same coin.

Reading the 10 principles wrote down on April I feel now they must be updated and I will do it on next days .

I was passively looking for succinct “bullet listed” explanation of Humane Design and did not stumble upon it. Looking forward to see it.

@patm

When I look at members’ activity, though, I see hundreds of zeroes in the categories of visits, reads, etc. Is the forum, as a few people have suggested, not as effective a form of communication as it could be? Does the cause lie in the discourse format? Do we indeed need the vitalizing force of CHT’s core team?

Guys, this forum is very important. It is not the number of people that matters that much, it is about quality of discussion, the ability to find like minded people and the ability to discover and become aware of the new ideas.
This forum should also, be about doing something. It can be fundamental research like writing principals, manifestos; more practical research/analysis - compiling lists of links to scientific research about different aspects of humane design, lists of “humanizing” tools; and practical building - would it not be cool if members of this forum helped to build real alternatives to the main culprits of inhumane design? As you already know I am building Validbook - I ask you and challenge you, to please tell me “Why Validbook Social service cannot be a real alternative to Facebook?”, “Why Validbook Services cannot become a manifestation of humane design ideas?”. Do not be afraid to be as direct and blunt while criticizing Validbook idea (I’ve got a thick skin) . Here is a budding discussion about Validbook but I think it would be better to do it at this topic - Validbook - a universal platform for cooperation.

Do we indeed need the vitalizing force of CHT’s core team?

As for this, well yes it would be nice, but I think this might be the wrong question. The right question – Who is the core team, the thought leaders of Humane Design idea/philosophy (we need them)? Who is capable and wiling to spend time and energy to explain and promote Humane Design idea? Why they would spend their time and energy on this (their motivation)? What will/should they do?


#7

After I wrote my blogpost, I realized there is a third way that the minority I belong to can reach out to the majority: through activism-based art. This is the kind of art @PatMc practices.

Did you see the Wikipedia article @john mentioned? (Hope I’m identifying the right John.) The pictures, which make my heart sink, are representative of the kind of thing I see several times a day on the university campus where I work. On Thursday, as my boss and I were driving back from a lunch meeting, he started to text on his phone! I insisted he, the driver, put his phone down. We were on campus by then and going less than ten miles an hour, but I was still appalled he would drive and text.

In my office I work with students, so that is another way–beyond the digital realm you mention–to reach them. By refraining from being on my phone–in fact, I frequently put it away where I can’t even hear it–I can teach them something about relationships with mobile devices.


#8

Nice to get your response, @Drabiv .

I did a quick count of people who are active, using this arbitrary measure of activity: visiting the forum at least once a week over the past month. I came up with about eighty members, or about 5% of the total membership. I agree that the numbers matter less than, as you say,

and I also like the way you reframed my question about the core team:

However, the fact that the forum has attracted people who, once they start reading posts and comments, don’t participate, does mean something. What is that something, and should we care? I feel that we should care.

The promise of blockchain technology and your Validbook proposal are things that others with much greater technical expertise (I have virtually none) must respond to. I know what @ALFREDO means, though, when he says blockchains and bitcoins are incidental to the central discussion. He is presenting a practical humanist’s point-of-view or philosophy that creates a natural divide here at the forum.

Is it possible to partition the forum in some way so that techies can hash out the relative values of blockchains and FB alternatives and then present the results to us laypeople? Let’s go back to what @aschrijver said:


#9

Hi!
As we know, there’s a lot going on behind the scenes ( especially where “social” media is concerned), to say the least. Check out today’s WSJ article: “The New Tech Avengers” . The article helps for understanding the significance and influence of powerful networks .

Interesting forum we have here; however, it’s difficult to know how far this will go…


#10

Wise decision you taked@aschrijver
I agree in both points: a) the excellent 3 Criteria of Humane Technology discuss (and besides the strong production in SF Chapter) and b) to create this new topic because its contents

No doubt about the important improving of the structure and design of this forum
I wrote down in more than one topic about this ongoing / non stop improving
I think I`m not in conditions to evaluate the work of moderators…but I public expressed here how happy I am with Mamie’s ownwership of this process, and evenmore I said it directly to Mamie about my satisfaction with this great work , she knows.
Sure , very sure, satisfied in this point.

I think you’re right that to go on to create synergy we will need a additional tools
I will try to make draft contribution in this point, but just now I feel we are going in the correct direction.

In any case I am strongly sure that we need to walk to a real shared learning and a non-stop

Mamie moved some topics to wiki mode , I think these movements may be the beggining to a real collaboration. In the same orientation works the Suggested Topics.
But , we as writers here, need to move from simply posting to real collaboration.
I think is a natural process , and Its logical we all are in this point of the process, but Im sure that you moderators can do a great quality jump (and you just begun) to induce all of us to a more real collaboration : I think it is now the right time.

Thank you so much for going ahead …you mentioned

And from my personal point of view , you`re surely right with this:

Making a summary …I deep agree with you and thanks for this quickly reply of yours


#11

At this point Im not sure if I would do it alone, sure it will be better in a colaboration way. Like you can see Im moving to a new point of view in a faster speed right now


#12

@patm
Yes , you understanded my point of view , not to go out of the focus.
But you open a very interesanting door , (as @Drabiv also did it ) of a new cross-mind comprenhension and I’m completely agree to “open that door” .
In my professional career , I real learnt Human Resources workin’ a lot with tech people
After that experience (quite long) my scope turned to a bigger one.


#13

@Drabiv

I’m thinking in next weeks to update the 10 principles (not sure if alone or in collaboration),
That you said they are only a succint “bullet listed”, it’s true , but only yet,
Its important to understand that the original idea was a concept emerged in the very first days of this forum , and not seemed at that moment that we have suficient elements to go deep and ahead. If I could go to early April, we backly,probably now Iwould’t sure to write such a prescriptive text, when the forum was discussing general things and no writing prescriptive proposals .
In any case I think it doesnt matter to make any defense of my post, and I will not do it al all. Better than that Its to go on thinking and creating, and if you want ,to collaborate in a new redaction righ now I invite you , open to another volunteers here.


#14

@ALFREDO

If we compile a list of all possible goals and wishes of what Humane Design can/should do, then we can use/reduce it to a few/ten principals of Humane Design.

What do you think?


#15

I was long thinking …and changing my mind one time and another , and so on…
I went backly to @aschrijver extensive words, so I think we’ve just in time of “collaborationI interaction between community and the CHT organization” as he said.
Again, first the first.
It is no functional to go on the 10 principles and other works like yours without at least me certainly aligned with goals of the team.
Excuse me.


#16

Hi @Drabiv

I am thinking again my position.
Im a little confused 'cause in one hand its clear that ,we in the forum, have no real collaboration yet, but in the other hand, this topic is Creating synergy on this forum and between commnunity and CHT organization, So , they are not contradictory proposals ,
But in the meanwhile @aschrijver said “but until now that has not really materialized”

If now I am right , may be useful to collaborate.
But , I think we need to open this collaboration with other people that is included in suggested topics

We must wait CHT ? , or we must collaborate within the forum ?
Please moderators , can you clear me / us this point ?


#17

If I may, I’d like to share a few thoughts.

It’s clear that the forum can be self-perpetuating and self-regulating whether or not there is a clear collaboration with CHT. I believe that @aschrijver was speaking in ideal terms: of a substantive, meaningful relationship with CHT that is mutually beneficial.

We don’t yet have that, though there have been efforts to effect it.

When I look at user data, it appears that those members who are closest to CHT aren’t actively involved in current conversations. This distancing, if we can call it that, could be a function of conflicting priorities–or could reflect the CHT team’s lack of involvement in the forum.


#18

As usual @aschrijver writes so clear and sincerity words, thanks you.
I value too much you post Tristan twitter adress
I respect CHT team low involved in the forum , I suppose there are steps to walk ahead.
Its clear for me CHT team is hard working to improve this forum, and in that attitude I undersand the interest on its content (eventhough in my case Im only learning of all of you).
In my desire is not a self-perpetuating and self regulating forum as said @Patm

I am expecting on future steps, patiently, but meangfully.